tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post7734941316870665922..comments2023-10-29T06:50:22.166-04:00Comments on Love in the Time of Chasmosaurs: The Case of the Stolen TylosaurusUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger86125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-81257400265961377362016-12-08T20:34:37.434-05:002016-12-08T20:34:37.434-05:00Anyone offended by the tone of the blog post or th...Anyone offended by the tone of the blog post or the comments in this thread needs to thicken up their skin and grow some osteoderms. Whether you're offended is not something of any material consequence to anyone anywhere, so swallow your coddled sense of etiquette and assess the facts like actual scientific thinkers. If you don't credit an artist you stifle the ability of that artist to keep making art, and subsequently the continued development of art and the discourse it generates. These are actual, broadly reaching, real-world consequences that affect the visual imagery that surrounds your field, and therefor public awareness and your ability to find funding for your projects. Funding, which by the way, rarely includes paleoart as a necessary part of the budget.<br /><br />P.S. Professional/publically visible artists eat public criticism all the time and nobody contacts us first to see if we're ok with it.Historianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11288473066598647024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-10604086060676703582016-12-05T15:26:50.286-05:002016-12-05T15:26:50.286-05:00Thanks, James. I appreciate your comments and your...Thanks, James. I appreciate your comments and your critiques. I understand your disagreement with my methods here. A blog like this does indeed live in a journalistic limbo. I'd consider a post like this to be a form of protest, which understandably fits oddly within a journalistic model. I'm not a trained journalist, either. As you can see by perusing the blog over time, I personally tend to play the part of a cheerleader for paleoartists and paleontologists both. So it's not necessarily my goal to do "call outs" all the time. I think your suggested approach is great. Maybe I'll change my mind about this post in the future. At any rate, thanks again for your comments.davorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04970830405883835452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-42072043008983002282016-12-05T13:20:16.615-05:002016-12-05T13:20:16.615-05:00When did being professional become equated with &q...When did being professional become equated with "muted civility"? Also, note that people equate questions about the tone with wanting people to say or do nothing or else being an apologist for bad behavior. I think its possible to be firm and use anger constructively without calling out someone's overall character. **I realize that I am saying this in a comments section on the internet**, and how absurd that might seem to some people. But also, we are all working in the same field and are passionate about the same kinds of things and I think we can be civil. I may have a unique view in that I have known both the authors and the artist for 6-7 years (Asher from when I was a curator at Alabama and I've been to Chile three times). I have either published with or been in the field and collected fossils with almost everyone involved. I may have been one of the first people to commission artwork from Asher.<br /><br />Anyhow, as has been pointed out by many, and well said by Victoria, "I don't think a lot of scientists (or non-scientists, for that matter) receive any training whatsoever in intellectual property stuff, and I think some of these things can be a bit opaque if you're not immersed in it all the time." And we can quibble about how easy it is and how dumb people are for not knowing, but ultimately that just puts people on their heels. Better to show people how easy it is. CC is pretty straightforward, but people still misunderstand it. <br /><br />I am not denying anyone a right to their anger, as I said, I have been on the artists' side of it. I am not saying that people should do nothing either. I have no issue with this mosasaur image issue being pointed out, in fact I think its great/important. But I do have a problem with the unprofessional tone of the blog post and many of the comments. I would have preferred to see a writeup after the author had been contacted parties had a chance to speak. Probably a personal blog doesn't count as journalism, I don't really know, but probably many of the same code of ethics could be useful (e.g., " Diligently seek subjects of news coverage to allow them to respond to criticism or allegations of wrongdoing"). I think that we need to avoid the rush to public shaming. I feel like the ire directed towards the author should have been reserved for someone that was unrepentant or a repeat offender. <br /><br />I realize there is a lot of justified anger in the paleoartist community, but I urge everyone to work together. I'd like to be an ally, and promote this issue.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08700512523331772608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-44048263237543230522016-12-05T10:45:27.536-05:002016-12-05T10:45:27.536-05:00You should credit Carlos Anzures for use of his Pe...You should credit Carlos Anzures for use of his Pelagornis as your profile pic.davorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04970830405883835452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-34248912433585590522016-12-04T23:04:47.274-05:002016-12-04T23:04:47.274-05:00No worries. It still does not reflect well on them...No worries. It still does not reflect well on them that they did it only after they have been called out about it. I mean, it is good that they rectified the issue, but best practice is still to put the credit in on the first place, which would keep everyone happy.Tommy Leunghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06421993204602775597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-8517152552983424972016-12-04T21:23:21.017-05:002016-12-04T21:23:21.017-05:00Apologies, I should have noted that the current cr...Apologies, I should have noted that the current credit was tacked on after Julius was informed about the situation.Rex Chenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07310618350525248176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-29873902699016837412016-12-04T20:45:19.018-05:002016-12-04T20:45:19.018-05:00Rex, I just checked that paper and if the graphica...Rex, I just checked that paper and if the graphical abstract did not have a credit for it before, it certainly does now. Tommy Leunghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06421993204602775597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-9872181286052932972016-12-04T20:13:23.939-05:002016-12-04T20:13:23.939-05:00Hey dude, can you stop talking about people 'w...Hey dude, can you stop talking about people 'whining' about a totally legitimate problem? Reproducing art without payment or attribution, when those things should be given, is a serious issue. It sounds like the problem in this instance has been corrected, but it wasn't wrong for the issue to be brought up.<br /><br />It's also a bit silly to suggest that scientists steer clear of art posted on the internet. Places like deviantart and twitter are huge resources for finding artists you might want to work with (either by commissioning new art or licensing existing art), and it's not hard to work with CC licenses once you know how.Victoriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09773365014990396396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-80542758358165658692016-12-04T20:01:57.376-05:002016-12-04T20:01:57.376-05:00I think it's worth pointing out that posts lik...I think it's worth pointing out that posts like this one, and like David's planned guide to IP and copyright, are helpful to scientists who value ethical conduct, and who want to see their palaeoartist colleagues thrive in their careers, too. This isn't the sort of thing covered during typical undergrad or graduate coursework in research science, so artist-run blogs like this one might be one of the only places to learn this kind of information.<br /><br />Your point is valid that the blame for this incident lies first with the people who wrongfully uploaded Asher's art under a CC license. I'm also sure it didn't feel good for the authors to have found out about the image problem in this manner, but that's how things go sometimes, and hopefully they, and others reading this blog, have learned how serious a problem this is for palaeoartists trying to make a living at what they do.Victoriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09773365014990396396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-38254345218096125862016-12-04T19:49:26.370-05:002016-12-04T19:49:26.370-05:00If your conclusion is that this happened because s...If your conclusion is that this happened because scientists don't know the difference between CC and CCo, allow me to remind you that the only difference that would have made, is that Otero et al would have credited the thief that uploaded the image as CC. Much better, hugh?<br /><br />Perhaps, asides from the abysmal ignorance of scientists, you should do not leave out from your future posts the fact that at least SOME part of the problem, or better said, the core, is caused by the people that actually STEAL. Unfortunately, I don't think any number of educative posts can prevent that from happening: No amount of education makes the difference to the basic message of "DON'T BE A THIEF". And yes, the only perfect protection against THAT, is not to post ANY artwork online. In this regard, your posts will hardly do anything to protect artists from actual thiefs. But your posts will be certainly helpful for scientists that they may then avoid being humiliated online by an inquisition of the internet community of artists. Thus I applaud and encourage you to write these posts, which will be valuable, if only to scientists. I know they won't change anything for the artists. <br /><br />And with this, I end my existence in this blog. Farewell. A. Vargashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04876504431768677209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-57330675247609339852016-12-04T19:26:58.258-05:002016-12-04T19:26:58.258-05:00Glad we agree in principle--a principled approach ...Glad we agree in principle--a principled approach to using paleoart would avoid a lot of these situations!<br /><br />The particulars of this instance are an interesting case, and certainly there is culpability for the person who reposted the image on Dinopedia without permission. But the principles still apply to subsequent uses, especially in a formal publication where an author is typically required/expected to have secured the rights to reproduce all text and images.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09213703196509207480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-76863633843269607782016-12-04T19:09:05.270-05:002016-12-04T19:09:05.270-05:00Artists have to market themselves online, period. ...Artists have to market themselves online, period. That's a fact of modern life.<br /><br />As I've pointed out in a comment above, there are no sufficient defenses against theft. They can be circumvented by anyone with the skill. The only perfect defense is not to post at all. Concerning which, see above paragraph.<br /><br />It doesn't matter if a work is genius or not, and that's not the point.<br /><br />It's not hard to find CC artwork to use or adapt. It's just not.<br /><br />Anyway, I hope you'll tune in when we post our upcoming IP and copyright post. Then no one has to be "burned at the stake" for the sake of whiny artists ever again.davorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04970830405883835452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-72385705043208566512016-12-04T18:55:27.783-05:002016-12-04T18:55:27.783-05:00I would just stay clear from anything that has bee...I would just stay clear from anything that has been posted on the internet. Artists themselves may be more cautious about posting their most priceless, high esteemed art on the web. I know some of the great artists always post on low res, or formats that can only be copied by screen saving. This seems like a good mechanism for uploading art if you are serious about its protection. And yeah, they also sign their artwork somehow. If you fail to do these things you are exposing yourself, so maybe you are not so serious about protecting your art (you don't care) , or maybe you shouldn't whine when, after being plagiarized by several sources, some poor scientist is misled into believing it is up for free use (and them burn said scientists at the stake) <br />Many teams of scientists have talented illustrators that can make original work (Sergio Soto could have for that paper). I myself have hired an artist to make original art for outreach images, so I don't have to worry about someone whining about us plagiarizing their unique genius (even if this is a diminute, low res image or only a shadow-like silhouette. You know, no actual large, high res, high-dedication artwork. Usually all we need is something schematic) <br />And yes, we did mark the artwork with the name of the illustrator. I see how this does not protect it from people that can edit it out of the image, and then upload it as their own under a CC license. You know, REALLY dishonest people. A. Vargashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04876504431768677209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-87420929820697802342016-12-04T18:33:15.350-05:002016-12-04T18:33:15.350-05:00One additional thought to add in here regarding gr...One additional thought to add in here regarding graphical abstracts: since graphical abstracts are relatively new and don't include captions, it might not be obvious to some authors where an artist credit should be included. I make most of my own figure art in order to avoid any copyright issues entirely in my papers, but if I were using (with permission) someone else's work in a figure they would usually be credited in the figure caption or (less likely) in the acknowledgements at the end of the paper. Since graphical abstracts don't have captions, I could see people missing this inadvertently if it didn't occur to them to stick a credit right into the image file itself. I'm not excusing this, since it's easy enough to add a text line into an image file, but pointing out that there's a couple of ways I can see this happening that are non-malicious.<br /><br />I don't think a lot of scientists (or non-scientists, for that matter) receive any training whatsoever in intellectual property stuff, and I think some of these things can be a bit opaque if you're not immersed in it all the time. Add in the fact that scientists generally have to transfer copyright in order for a paper to be published, and it all gets a lot murkier (this is also a good reason for artists not to give art freely for scientific papers - ask for payment if you're going to lose copyright to your work!).<br /><br />I think a guide to CC licenses and IP in scientific publishing is a great idea and will be a handy thing for people to be able to share with colleagues and students - let me know if I can help!Victoriahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09773365014990396396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-75268598343617362652016-12-04T17:50:41.284-05:002016-12-04T17:50:41.284-05:00Thank you for letting us know. Seems a call for ar...Thank you for letting us know. Seems a call for artists to report these instances is in order. Perhaps for a special post.davorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04970830405883835452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-7087295891299724062016-12-04T17:35:38.531-05:002016-12-04T17:35:38.531-05:00A somewhat similar problem occurred last year when...A somewhat similar problem occurred last year when the graphical abstract for Bell et al. (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1342937X15002026) failed to credit Julius Csotonyi for his art.Rex Chenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07310618350525248176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-2469557163917452492016-12-04T16:18:58.750-05:002016-12-04T16:18:58.750-05:00"No paleoartist will hear from me again regar..."No paleoartist will hear from me again regarding any work of their authory, that's for sure."<br /><br />That seems like a nuclear option. I mean, do what you want to do, but you could just ask and I'll bet you'll be able to find images to use and/or modify.<br /><br />At any rate, thanks for chiming in. You may find our upcoming image use best practices post(s) enlightening and useful.davorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04970830405883835452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-62575087495521595622016-12-04T16:12:41.905-05:002016-12-04T16:12:41.905-05:00As discussed elsewhere the author did not self-del...As discussed elsewhere the author did not self-delete. Unclear what happened, but he has chimed in below.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08700512523331772608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-57316525390773527022016-12-04T15:10:10.829-05:002016-12-04T15:10:10.829-05:00I now see an actual author comment all the way at ...I now see an actual author comment all the way at the bottom of the comments section. I had been scrolling through replying before I got to what are apparently newer comments. So I blame the Blogger comments setup! Maybe an update to the blog post is warranted to catch people up before they also start reading this conversation in reverse.Matt Martyniukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04220900229537564466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-24946321455833158272016-12-04T15:05:37.966-05:002016-12-04T15:05:37.966-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Matt Martyniukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04220900229537564466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-11892705285191158822016-12-04T15:05:34.247-05:002016-12-04T15:05:34.247-05:00Hello all,
I've tried here to be transparent a...Hello all,<br />I've tried here to be transparent about this trouble. As the first author of the paper, I assume all the responsability on this; I've contacted Mr. Elbein (author of the image) to offer him my apologies and the explanation of the case; I've also offered explanations through public domains; I've wrote to the journal and the graphic abstract will be changed. Then, I just want to say once again that this was a mistake. I feel I did all the politically correct things to do after this (non-premeditate) error. I've never made a competent draw of a dinosaur or a marine reptile, then, I cannot claim as mine any nice drawing (uncredited in several sites) around the net. There are many persons trying to see this as an attempt to self-credit an artistic work in the context of a paleontologic research; I shouldn't need to say that both are completely different things; I'm not a paleoartist; however, I do have some background on paleontology research; Also, many posts have been very offensive even before hearing any explanation from us. So, if you want to keep the idea that I wanted to become an instant artist, go ahead. It was never the point nor the goal of our research. <br /><br /><br />And yes; I've failed in knowing about CC. Sorry, there are things that I don't know accurately (probably most humans are in the same situation); however, I've learned. No paleoartist will hear from me again regarding any work of their authory, that's for sure.<br />R. Oterohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10588211495862117125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-20026571654424989702016-12-04T15:00:19.741-05:002016-12-04T15:00:19.741-05:00Where? The comments from the author on this page s...Where? The comments from the author on this page seem to have been self-deleted.Matt Martyniukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04220900229537564466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-37941002412905820062016-12-04T13:35:42.110-05:002016-12-04T13:35:42.110-05:00It's quite frightening how prevalent such igno...It's quite frightening how prevalent such ignorance and naivety regarding copyright law is. You can bet you'd hear from me if I saw my artwork used without permission as well. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09630838114257894524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-25316207552930722422016-12-04T11:40:39.887-05:002016-12-04T11:40:39.887-05:00I see your point, and agree in principle, but also...I see your point, and agree in principle, but also see the circumstances about how this particular instance came about. But perhaps more to the point, the graphical abstract is being retracted. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08700512523331772608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-76834821445563933852016-12-04T11:33:15.741-05:002016-12-04T11:33:15.741-05:00Another way of thinking about this: A piece of pal...Another way of thinking about this: A piece of paleoart, like a scientific paper, is a published hypothesis. The artist has done the research and presented a visual hypothesis of an extinct organism's appearance and behavior. Looked at this way, using an existing piece of art in your research is the equivalent of copying the conclusion from someone else's paper and inserting it in your text. The only time this is appropriate (for text or images) is if you were clearly commenting on someone's earlier work (e.g.: "Artist X restored this animal with these features, but our research shows something new or different.") If a researcher published text that was identical to (or only slightly modified from) someone else's work, I'd bet the response would be far more scathing than the original post or most of the comments here.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09213703196509207480noreply@blogger.com