tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post4591812562254897059..comments2023-10-29T06:50:22.166-04:00Comments on Love in the Time of Chasmosaurs: The Great Debate in PaleoartUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-73781442163909652702011-04-04T08:46:06.565-04:002011-04-04T08:46:06.565-04:00DSC: I basically agree with you here. That aspect ...DSC: I basically agree with you here. That aspect of his argument is pretty solid. And he does make a distinction regarding amateur work, acknowledging that "copying" is something he himself did when learning the craft. It was a valuable discussion to spark, as aspiring paleoartists must grapple with the realities of the work.<br /><br />My only quarrels came when he would not allow for that discussion to explore the idea that full-time work as a paleoartist may not be the most reliable way to earn a livelihood. No one argued against trying to make the profession as equitable as possible, but things got nasty when folks made suggested that working in other, more marketable genres as well may be necessary to keep food on the table. At that point, it seemed to hit a nerve with him and discussion was derailed. A pity, because I'm very interested in this, as noted in the post above. Suffice to say that now that things have cooled down, I'm eager to see how paleoartists organize themselves and work to strengthen the profession.davorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04970830405883835452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-29291752606452840502011-04-03T04:47:58.229-04:002011-04-03T04:47:58.229-04:00I had written a comment that was perhaps too long,...I had written a comment that was perhaps too long, tried to preview, it failed, now it's gone, and I feel like going to the streets and killing a random person.<br /><br />Anyway, instead, a more succinct version* of the comment.<br /><br />I think GSP is often being misinterpreted. I've not read everything that has been written, not even everything he wrote, but to me it seems he's just making an appeal for common sense standards of copyright, not so much "copyright of poses" or proportions or anything. Only that people charge for the work themselves do, and don't claim someone else's work as their own, charging for it.<br /><br />I suspect that there's a distinction that should have been made between professional works and amateur, hobbyist work. Some people seem to have had the impression that he said that only pros should do paleo-art, not amateurs. I don't think it's the case, I think it's the same situation. Is not the problem of copying him in itself for a hobby that bothers him, but selling it. If one really want's to call himself a paleo artist and charge for a paleontological reconstruction, then one really should do all the actual work of seeing the fossils, taking pictures, examining the proportions and drawing, not just copying someone else's work.<br /><br />Not that copying him for a hobby is 100% free of criticism. I don't think everyone needs to draw dinosaurs only running at the exact same millisecond, 100% perpendicular to the point of view, with an open mouth. It may have been "common", but so are many other positions, even when a dinosaur was running. If one really likes making images of dinosaurs, he or she should put some effort on making something more original. That also does not imply in not using GSP's or someone else's restorations for proportions or any anatomical aspect, or deliberately drawing wrong. For the sake of decency, you should also put something "after Whoever", the more heavily you've based your picture on someone else's picture.<br /><br />With "just illustration" work, things are a bit in between. You'll be paid for it, but you won't be asked to do some blatant rip-off of an schematic or just draw some muscles and skin over it, and hint some background. That's plagiarism, just like it would be with art of any other topic. But like amateur/hobbyist paleo-art, you still can use references to produce something new. "Derivative" in copyright terms is not using reference properly, but actual plagiarism. If you look for illustrations and other information on the costumes of ancient Egyptians and Romans to draw a complex scene with Caesar and Cleopatra, that's not derivative. Derivative would be looking at a picture of Caesar and Cleopatra and re-making with some twist or just with your style.<br /><br />You can use GSP's work as reference, specially the schematics, and create different scenes, based on the dinosaur's proportions you saw. You can do that using as many of his skeletal reconstructions as you want in a scene. But one can't look at the final picture and see just a dozen dinosaurs running at the same moment of the step, perfectly perpendicularly to the viewer with their opened mouths. Even if you "mirror" a bunch of them. It can't be something that screams "GREG PAUL" to anyone familiar with his work. <br /><br />I think these were his real points, and this isn't unreasonable at all.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />* I'm sorry, it didn't end out significantly shorter than the previous one. And much worse, I guess.dschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05153318861070317827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-56030100459555307852011-03-18T17:29:46.820-04:002011-03-18T17:29:46.820-04:00What planet is Greg Paul on!? You cant copyright ...What planet is Greg Paul on!? You cant copyright a pose, let alone one that is something that is a natural commonly occurring one!? So everyone else has to draw them in inaccurate unnatural poses or pay him rights money!?<br /><br />Looks to me like Greg Paul's last desperate grab for importance before he's replaced by better, less self-important. more modest and more polite palaeoartists who are actually able to accept criticism.....Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03830647836873243179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-42091933826454548902011-03-17T22:28:27.453-04:002011-03-17T22:28:27.453-04:00Dinosaurs are just really fun to draw! Also, to qu...Dinosaurs are just really fun to draw! Also, to quote a certain BBC animator, "Dinosaurs haven't got all the fur that's so hard to deal with."Metalbabe96https://www.blogger.com/profile/17623513372513017295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-51021135258379006222011-03-17T00:46:39.450-04:002011-03-17T00:46:39.450-04:00Points well taken, gents. I have yet to hear why o...Points well taken, gents. I have yet to hear why organizing paleoartists into a guild will grow the market. It will help them, and I am 100% in favor of it. But will it grow the market? There's not much money in paleontology. I think it will work out eventually, too. Hopefully the organization Mike Habib will be proposing at SVP will help in this regard.<br /><br />If he wants to open this up to discussion, the critiques of his style you both bring up are going to happen. Hopefully he can handle it.<br /><br />If GSP wanted to be part of a community on the web, he certainly could. Doesn't cost money to start a blog. Pro accounts on Deviantart and Flickr are cheap. He sticks with his site and apparently believes that tossing a couple books up there with emails to listservs counts as making a good attempt at self-publishing. Yeah, right...davorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04970830405883835452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-36819854684446628012011-03-16T17:02:11.359-04:002011-03-16T17:02:11.359-04:00There are certainly "problems" with up-a...There are certainly "problems" with up-and-coming paleoartists shamelessly ripping off GSP's work, but it's usually a stepping-stone to finding one's own style. That was certainly my experience. You might say that his "Predatory Dinosaurs of the World" book basically taught me how to draw theropods, but I quickly came into my own (crappy) style.<br /><br />You could say the same thing about Charles Knight. He's the only other paleoartist I can think of who has so substantially influenced subsequent paleoartists. Immitation is the highest form of flattery, of course. I can see where GSP is coming from, but he's going about his complaint the wrong way. <br /><br />The market is, of course, extremely small for quality paleoart. As with any market, I think it'll work itself out. GSP fails to mention all of the other, arguably better professional paleoartists out there who are not being duplicated: Mike Skrepnick and James Guerney among them. A cynic might tell you that GSP's style is easy to replicate because it's so basic and similar picture-to-picture. Iconic? Yes. For the wrong reasons? Maybe.<br /><br />(I am by no means docking his skill as an artist--GSP is amazingly talented. I'm saying his irritation over immitators might stem from his own tecnique).Zachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10263627811460351196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9107291904794625632.post-51460580678745349432011-03-15T23:12:47.606-04:002011-03-15T23:12:47.606-04:00It's funny, I actually avoid the pose referred...It's funny, I actually avoid the pose referred to in Greg Paul's art as much as I can for the simple reason it's been used in *everything*. As to your concernes about paleo illustrators earning a crust, this applies as much for general purpose illustration. There's so much talent out there that the market is flooded and buyers can name their price.<br />Since there's also a dilution of the integrity of copyright and images are so easy to copy there's little value placed on the authorship of content.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com